Topic: Improving the male lead....

[marty_baby]

Hiya Guys,

Will appreciate your input here.  I really want to improve my dancing and I see my lead as something to look at.


2 things:

1.  I have a light lead (Dunno if THIS is a problem)
2.  ... and I (think) I could improve on my timing....


A teacher (Roy) at this Torquay thing said that
1.  a male needs a strong lead
2.  and he needs to be just before "the beat."   This way the lady's moves will be on the beat, better for the female to settle into a move  - and the timing of the moves would sync to the beat of the music a lot better

.... is this right - or just another style opinion?


The reason I'm asking for your input is:

I'm really finding problems leading beginners, or ladys I haven't danced before with. 

I'm also finding problems with introducing different moves, with people I've danced with loads etc.  (a possible reason being a my light lead (arguably vague) and (arguably) late lead... and the poor girl is guessing my next move.....)


I firmly believe that its the leaders fault if a move goes wrong. 


So is a firm lead the way to go at all times?  Or do you need to adjust the lead - to suit the female?  (Eg.  Alot heavier for the beginners???) 


Your input would be appreciate - wrt to the timing, and strength of lead etc.


Cheers
Martin


PS:
Elaine - ouch!  yanked arms are never good..... If it helps... I was elbowed in the face...   Oh... and Elaine - you are hot!    hope that cheers you up!   


 

[John Gimber: Webmaster]

Hi Marty,

A few tips that I always try out:

1. When dancing with new people, start off running through a few simple moves (the beginner ones) to get a "feel" for your partner.  The easy stuff will allow you to adjust arm tension, positioning, and "testosterone inejction" levels!  Once you have the suss of your partner, increase the complexity of the moves until you hit the upper limit.  Throttle it back a bit from there and it'll be comfy.

2. It's not always the leader's fault if a move goes wrong (unless you're trying to lead a "choreographed move" as opposed to a "leadable move" which requires no knowledge from the lady apart from leroc technique).  One thing you could do though is apologise and pretend it is, even if it isn't - the ladies like that!

3. In an ideal world, your lead is definite enough to give the lady all she needs to know about the move, without needing signals of any kind.  One of the interesting "early level" flaws I see in dancers is that the hands are held too high - this prevents a lot of expressiveness in moves which can be used for leading.  Try keeping them low down (waist / hip height) if possible.

4. Light leads aren't a problem at all, if you find a lady who likes them.  She'll respond far better to your lead than to someone throwing her around like a sack of spuds. 

5. Try to adjust your moves to the position of the lady at the time - i.e. if the lady is overturned out of a spin, then something like a passing backhander, or shoulder bumps, would flow well as you're in a natural position for that kind of thing.  Less of a lead is needed then.

6. DO try to lead in the right direction.  If you mis-lead a move, that's bad.  An example of this is in returns.  If you flick the lady's hand towards the floor in a short snap, then there is no question about what you are doing.  If you are aiming for the same thing but your hand travels horizontally or slightly upward and you're late letting go, the lady will hang on to your hand in anticipation of an overhead return instead.  That means the lady will have to take control a bit just to keep the flow going from her perspective.

7. Oh yes, and my own personal rule: it's better to lead a simple move well, than to screw up a complicated one!

Just a bit of food for thought!

John.

[DavidB]

There is nothing wrong with a light lead.
 - there aren't any moves that actually need a strong lead
 - you are never going to hurt anyone with a light lead
 - you are never going to hurt yourself either.

Besides - if it was the job of the man to physically move the lady around it would be called "horsing & carting", not "leading & following".

There are some things to remember about a light lead. The main one as you pointed out is timing. A light lead gives all the responsibility about moving to the lady, so you have to give her time to react - especially when you are leading a change of direction. I don't think about my timing - instead I adjust when I lead to how quick the lady reacts.

There is a limit to how light you should make your lead. Although it is possible to lead purely visually (ie without any connection at all) you should aim for your lead to work if the lady is blindfold. That means being able to lead not just moves, but changes in speed & timing. You should be able to halve the power in the connection and still know where the lady is. You should also be able to double the power without ripping her arms out of her sockets! This allows you to slow down and speed up the move.

Many people equate a light lead with a fingertip lead. Generally this is ok, but there are some moves when the lady would prefer a more solid connection. Especially when you are completely redirecting her momentum, or leading into a spin.

If a move goes wrong then don't just think of the move you were trying to do. Instead think of what the lady actually did, and try to work out why. It is very rare that either one of you is completely wrong. What usually happens is that your lead could possibly mean 2 things, and the lady just picked the wrong option. So think how you would lead the wrong option, and take that option out of your lead.

David

[JT]

4. Light leads aren't a problem at all, if you find a lady who likes them.  She'll respond far better to your lead than to someone throwing her around like a sack of spuds. 

Marty - I have never had a problem following your 'light' lead, only if you're leading me into a move I don't know - and that's not your fault, just my lack of knowledge!  A light lead is not a problem as long as the guy doesn't change his mind about what move he's leading. 

Having said all of that though, I suppose on the flip slide, most women wouldn't want a man with a 'feathery' touch, I don't know if I'd have much confidence in him when it came to doing drops or leans - ooh, us women, we're so fickle!!!

[Lou]

There is nothing wrong with a light lead. .........
......... You should be able to halve the power in the connection and still know where the lady is. You should also be able to double the power without ripping her arms out of her sockets! This allows you to slow down and speed up the move.

Wot DavidB Said.

It doesn't really matter to me whether a lead is heavy or light - so long as it is clear. Jelly arms aren't clear, and neither is jerking.  We have a fantastic range of good dancers in Bristol with leads ranging from light to heavy. What they have in common is that they are smooth & can communicate their intentions clearly.

[Elaine]

There is nothing wrong with a light lead.
 - there aren't any moves that actually need a strong lead
 - you are never going to hurt anyone with a light lead
 - you are never going to hurt yourself either.

Besides - if it was the job of the man to physically move the lady around it would be called "horsing & carting", not "leading & following".

David

Quite!!!


Marty, you do have a light lead and please, please don't change it!  If you can follow David's advice, then you will find that your lead will improve.  I would suggest that you join the queue of women and men (yes, David will lead men as well), to find out what a really, really good lead is all about! 

Actually, I really wish that more men would ask other men to dance.  It is a common thing in Tango and happens quite frequently in the MJ scene in London.  IMHO opinion, it can only improve the understanding of how to lead.

Any of the teachers in Bristol willing to take up the challenge?  It would be fantastic if this could be done as it may give some of our 'horse and cart' leaders an insight......... Perhaps their victim ( I mean partner!), could then turn the tables and show to them exactly how strong they are being and then in turn show how to lead in a lighter manner?

Of course, I understand that some of the Ladies are not all innocent in their following and can jerk the leaders arm quite badly as well.......


Elaine

[Nick M]

2. It's not always the leader's fault if a move goes wrong (unless you're trying to lead a "choreographed move" as opposed to a "leadable move" which requires no knowledge from the lady apart from leroc technique).  One thing you could do though is apologise and pretend it is, even if it isn't - the ladies like that!

I thought the cardinal rule was "whatever happens, it's the man's fault".

So if a move goes wrong, then either

1) you mislead it, or
2) it was inappropriate for that particular partner

Nick

[JT]

2) it was inappropriate for that particular partner

Nick

  - very tactful

[marty_baby]

hiya Guys,

wow.... so many replies so quickly.... didn't know my lead was SOoooo.... bad!   


Only kidding!
Cheers for the input people!  All of this is good food for thought.


Keep it all coming!


Martin


PS:
shas bots!  Looks like I need to think about my dancing a bit more on dance nights... !      

[Lou]

Actually, I really wish that more men would ask other men to dance.  It is a common thing in Tango and happens quite frequently in the MJ scene in London.  IMHO opinion, it can only improve the understanding of how to lead.

Good idea, Elaine.  I learnt so much about following when I started dancing lead with other women. Also, I'm quite happy to dance lead if a chap wants to have a go at following, if it makes it easier dancing with  a woman, rather than another man. However, I've been told I do wiggle a bit too much as a man!  I would say, though, that men will learn more by dancing with many other men, as you get to see what others do well, and what they do badly.

[Elaine]

I have copied a post from an experienced MALE dancer from 'the other place' - with permission of course!  So, if any of you Guys are prepared to take up the challenge - good on you!!

Elaine


1) Learn to dance as a follower as well as a leader. I know it will take a lot of guts and you will have to run the gauntlet of unhelpful jibbing from the blokes in a class. Tell the teacher what you are planning to do and get them to explain it to the class that you have no other agenda apart from getting better at dancing. So how will this help your dancing? For a start it will get you started on the ability as a man to be able to spin (which will add texture to your dance range) and that will teach you about balance. Secondly, only when you have experienced from the followers side what bouncy, floppy, waggly and violent carnage is meted out by many leaders can you recognise those things that you are responsible for in your own leading. Lastly you will find that to follow you must let go of any desire to anticipate, even a bad lead. You will find that you are wholly dependant on your leader and how much trust that follower is putting in you to not push them off balance. Once you understand that level of trust that is being placed in you, you become much more careful not to abuse that trust.

Answering your other question about ladies that learn to lead (from what my partner has told me). The lead is gentler and because of that it is MUCH MORE obvious. Pushing and shoving a follower around with a big or forceful lead only pushes them off balance and so they have to concentrate on getting back on balance or not falling over. While they are doing this they are not able to concentrate on the signals that are coming from your lead. If the leader then responds with an even bigger/forceful lead then the situation often spirals out of control.

Everyone needs things to be more obvious when they are learning but obvious does not mean big/forceful. Big and forceful does not train followers to respond to gentle leads - it just takes them at a time when they are struggling to do the moves and stay on balance and knocks them off balance.

The best way to learn this is to put yourself in their situation.

I found it utterly terrifying the first time I did (and still do a bit - depending on who I try it with).

Happy dancing.

[Nick M]

1) Learn to dance as a follower as well as a leader. I know it will take a lot of guts and you will have to run the gauntlet of unhelpful jibbing from the blokes in a class.

An easier approach which I have taken in the past a few times

1) go to the beginners class
2) when paired with an experienced lady whom you know, ask to swap roles. She gets experience of leading, you get experience of following
3) when paired with an inexperienced lady, don't

I am sure I have done this at St Bons with Lou, for example

[Lou]

And fun it was too, Nick.  I've also tried to Double Trouble 2 chaps, but it all ended in total chaos.....   

John G - you follow nicely. How did you learn?

[John Gimber: Webmaster]

Practice, a willingness to laugh if I made a mistake, and some patient ladies with good follows!

I spin nice too, so I've been told!

John.

[Justine]

hi marty, im a beginner and i have danced with you before, from a beginners point of veiw i found it difficult to dance with you as the lead wasnt very firm, hey what do i know about dancing and as elaine said you are fine, im just saying from a beginners point of veiw and i do think you are a very good dancer you present yourself very well, maybe its us beginnners that have to inprove to dance correctly with you,

               justine xx