Topic: Frame Elasticity

[andy14bike]

Maintaining a frame in ballroom or tango seems logical as most of the time leader and follower are in a two arm hold. However it took my a while to get my head round the idea in MJ where the hold keeps changing and for many moves it only involves one arm. For me the term elasticity is more meaningful where the arm or arms need just the right amount of stiffness or floppyness for the leader to be able to lead properly. Without being able to control the degree of elasticity the dance just does not happen! Any comments?

[John Gimber: Webmaster]

The elasticity / tension in the arms has an extra double benefit - when coming together quickly, the tension acts as a spring to avoid inelegant / dangerous collisions, and when moving apart the elasticity / tension can prevent muscle / joint damage when braking.

[philsmove]

Maintaining a frame in ballroom or tango seems logical ......it took my a while to get my head round the idea in MJ where the hold keeps changing and for many moves it only involves one arm.

I agree completely, getting one's head , or is it one's arm , around maintaining the frame with one hand, is certainly not easy

. Without being able to control the degree of elasticity the dance just does not happen! Any comments?

Agree again, I think controlling the degree of elasticity is one of the elements that allows us to maintain the frame

[andy14bike]

When maintaining the tension in the arms sometimes it is taught to do it with a bounce and sometimes without. Does anyone have a preference?

[Anita]

No bouncing Andy !!-- (at least, if you mean bouncing the hand up & down as some men do).

[philsmove]

OMG they dont still teach the Leroc bounce do they

[andy14bike]

"Catch the bounce" I believe is the expression. Leroc has been taught with a bounce within the past two years. Would any teachers like to comment?

[John Gimber: Webmaster]

I have used that expression, but only for the catch-behind used on a catapult.

All other times I emphasise good lead / follow techniques instead. 

In fact the other day I was teaching somebody in a private class and they couldn't get the hang of using the lead / follow.  In the end I made both learners dance with their eyes shut - the guy had to really envisage what he wanted in order to make it happen, and the lady had to rely on the signals fed to her via the lead in order to work out what was required of her.

Closing their eyes opened their eyes - after they got the concepts their dancing took off nicely.  That's just one technique of many that I use though to build a connection between partners.

[Andy McGregor]

I have used that expression, but only for the catch-behind used on a catapult.

There is no "catch behind" in the catapult. The way some people teach it there is an "offer" behind.

So long as the lady has tone in her arm, maintains the frame and follows the convention that as she steps forward she keeps her free hand in front of her, palm down around waist height there is no need to reach behind you at all. I'm reluctant to teach guys to put their hand behind their back into the unknown when a lady is standing directly behind them.

I dance and teach the catapult with the lady led forward with just the right hand. The lady is led into the guy's left side. When she appears there it is easy to take her free left hand in your left hand (with the lady's hand under the guy's), step back and lead the spin to finish the move.

And bouncing? It's OK between consenting adults - I don't do it myself but I have friends who bounce ...

[John Gimber: Webmaster]

Agreed that the arm tension between the partners is what makes a lot of this work.  Not too little, not too much...  a bit like cars really.  You need to suspension tension just right for a smooth ride.

I don't like the bouncing style of dance myself, but each to their own - if a lady is dancing it then I'll try to match styles (to be polite) to a degree.

I suppose with the catapult, when I bring the lady alongside (past my right), it's only as she straightens up behind me that I offer the hand.  In this way I know that it is visible and only available to my current partner on the dancefloor...   Like all such moves with slightly unusual angles though, I am always prepared to break the hold and recover safely.  I never force moves.

[Pricey]

OMG they dont still teach the Leroc bounce do they

There were a few bouncey dancers at the Ceroc Champs 

 - (and for the sake of fairness, some very smooth dancers too)  . 

[Baruch]

Bouncing is bad. Let no-one tell you otherwise. Smooth is much better. A bounce just gets in the way of a good lead-follow connection, and just looks naff.

[Andy McGregor]

I watch a lot of people dancing in my travels around the country and at dance holidays. There is a way of dancing MJ that is probably the most common. It seems to involve over-rotating your partner and breaking the frame with a quarter turn away - a bit like a pointlesss preparation. At the end of each quarter turn there seems to be a bounce or a flick of the wrist. Some guys also nod away from their partner and at their shoulder on this bounce - some of these nodders also do "pursed lip breathing" as if whistling. The over-rotate/frame-break/bounce so common in MJ I think that many observers from other parts of the dance world would say it defines the dance.

Is there anything wrong with this way of dancing? I'm in two minds;

My reaction when I was into ballroom dancing to cover my eyes. I remember the first time I saw MJ danced in the street. I was not impressed at all! No frame, no footwork, bouncing, sketchy lead and follow, jerking shoulders, straight arms, raised shoulders, dreadful posture, poor connection, etc, etc (how I got into MJ is another story, mostly about not knowing the name of the dance I'd seen and being dragged along by a friend who'd been to one lesson).

My thoughts nowadays are that any dancing is better than no dancing. People are having fun and they are dancing. Why burst their bubble?

Do I teach people to dance MJ the way I saw in the street all those years ago? No Chance. I teach proper lead/follow, frame, posture, footwork, etc. Plus I explain basic musical structure so they know which foot and which beat. And I spend time with students individually making sure they practice "best practice" and don't develop bad habits. After all, in dancing it isn't "practice makes perfect" it's "practice makes permanent".

However, when we're at a dance or a party I just enjoy dancing. My partner can be as bouncy as she likes and I just have a great time. I don't try to change her dancing. She can bounce like Tigger, so long as it's "fun, fun, fun, fun, fun"*.

*Which is, of course, the "Wonderful thing about Tigger".