Topic: Tuesday 9th August, 2005: "No Signals"

[John: Elmgrove LeRoc]

Hi All

The routine for tonight was:

Beginners:

• Arch
  
• First move
  
• Loophole
• (Change places)

Intermediates:

• Handcuff lean (spin-out exit)
• Reverse catapult
• Kleaver x 2
• Full windmill lunge (spin-behind exit)

The idea of the class was that it was all done with no signals - the man's lead was sufficient to make the routine work.

Providing the man lead it properly, of course...

Enjoy!

John.

[John Eastman]

The idea of the class was that it was all done with no signals - the man's lead was sufficient to make the routine work.

Providing the man lead it properly, of course...

Isn't that the idea with most routines?  Signals only mean anything if everyone learns the same signals in all the classes.  They can work for beginners as an aid when first learning, but when it comes to intermediates we can't have 500+ different signals.

Maybe we mean different things by the term "signal". What is your definition of a signal and when they are needed?

[John: Elmgrove LeRoc]

Hi John, that's a good question.

True, signals are only of use generally at beginner level.

This particular routine concentrated on highlighting the effect a strong lead would have on the dance.

If the men lead strongly, the routine worked.
If the man didn't lead strongly, the routine didn't work.

In an environment such as this it becomes obvious to the dancer what the effect of the differing lead strenghts and clarity of lead has on the routine.

Signals can be used to indicate the man's intended direction, or where the man wants the woman to go.  The moves in this routine specifically made the men take the woman into unexpected combinations - using lead alone (i.e. no visual cues from the man).

I have a few things I'm doing in my classes:

1. Improvements on individual skills on each night
2. Progressions of moves (e.g. catapult, catapult spin, catapult archie, reverse catapult...) on subsequent weeks, to partly revise entries to moves and to show the things that can be done with the same kind of move.

I can't say I aim my classes at advanced dancers - low/intermediate level, yes.  I feel that a class dealing with the techniques,  reasons and methods of dancing are as useful as the classes that teach moves that use those techniques.

What can I say - it's just my thing!

John.

[jivedave]

a discerning duo of doyens debating a dance dichotomy.

to signal or not to signal (i haven't encountered them but presumably 'taxi' dancers never, ever signal)

well, whether one signals or not - if it goes wrong then the male is obviously at fault. yes, you can lead your partner onto the floor but you can't make her follow! 

ps : agony aunt, why is my Karma so low???

[John: Elmgrove LeRoc]

you can lead your partner onto the floor but you can't make her follow! 

Depends on whether you try leading by the reins or the tail...

Karma will improve with age.

Say nice things to Elaine or Lou and Karma shall be yours!

John.

[ClaireLSt]

so would you call 'preparation' for a move, ie obvious change of hand position, using certain styling for example in lindy touch hip touch hip before a tuck turn etc etc and many others (what do i know ) , a leading technique?  i think it is quite amazing how in classes, even though these points are emphasised, many leaders do not pick up on them. 
(mind you, it doesnt explain why i can follow a class perfectly but have a highly vpl style in freestyle lindy. which i would say is largely without signals.)

[jivedave]

Karma will improve with age.

Say nice things to Elaine or Lou and Karma shall be yours!

John.

thankyou wise one for i have learnt that karma is the way to inner peace and fulfilment - and will lead to a new mercedes convertible. i shall go forth and seek the patronage of the karma police.

[John: Elmgrove LeRoc]

so would you call 'preparation' for a move, ie obvious change of hand position, using certain styling for example in lindy touch hip touch hip before a tuck turn etc etc and many others (what do i know ) , a leading technique?  i think it is quite amazing how in classes, even though these points are emphasised, many leaders do not pick up on them. 
(mind you, it doesnt explain why i can follow a class perfectly but have a highly vpl style in freestyle lindy. which i would say is largely without signals.)

That's an interesting question.

I'll answer as best I can though I haven't done lindy so can't answer for that!

Erm... I do tend to show the different grips that can be used on entry to moves or during moves, as these can affect the ability of the man to lead it properly.  I find that highlighting the good method and then highlighting the bad method for the same thing can really impart an understanding of why something is done a particular way.

The problems with classes is that the men know what to lead and the ladies know what to follow - freestyle is different where neither party are generally aware of the future enough to plan ahead.  On times like this I like to think that the men learning intermediate lead techniques and strengths can take a lady through a set of moves even if the signals aren't visible.

More of what I tend to do in my theme classes (for concentrating on individual techniques) deals with how to lead ladies into spins, how to avoid floor collisions, how to dance small (using sellotape, no less), etc.  Some of it is common sense, but like a lot of common sense things you don't think about it until someone mentions it to you!

Also as part of the "lead" improvement I cover the positioning of the man going into the lead, and during the lead - i.e. where can the man best use his weight and speed to make the lady's part of the move work better?

John.

[Elaine]

As you probably know, I dance Argentinian Tango, but as I do not go consistantly, I am still very much a beginner. Argentinian Tango has no signals, it is all about lead/follow.  It is also about the lead understanding where his partners weight is.

I can dance with a very Advanced Tango dancer and have no problem at all - and as I have said, there are NO signals, whatsover, honest!  None, not one, no, no signals!!!

If anyone wants to improve their lead/follow in Le Roc, I would strongly suggest that you try a beginners class of Tango.  it is hard to start with - very hard, but please stick with it.  I have found that those Le Rocers who have given it a go are much better leaders.  You will also enjoy your Le Roc much more!


Elaine

[John: Elmgrove LeRoc]

Very true!

I can recommend Tango West (www.tangowest.co.uk) if you're interested in more details.  I believe there are other classes around as well.

John.

[ClaireLSt]

oh yeah. reminds me. we had a tango dancer turn up on spec at lindy one night. he said that (according to
Argentinian custom type thing)  as an apprenticeship to dancing socially or at all, would-be leads must dance as a follower with experienced older leaders before they themselves can  learn the role.  what do you think of that??   is that the key to imparting technique, rather than 'just' moves, that can be used anywhere to freestyle?

this particular tango dancer we had as a visitor must have been extra confident tho', as he spent 2 hours dancing with us in open toed 'birkies'      daring!

i do agree elaine though, that logically it must be an awareness of weight/weight shift. ? but how do you add direction/shape?  ..or does that actually matter so much?

[Elaine]

oh yeah. reminds me. we had a tango dancer turn up on spec at lindy one night. he said that (according to
Argentinian custom type thing)  as an apprenticeship to dancing socially or at all, would-be leads must dance as a follower with experienced older leaders before they themselves can  learn the role.  what do you think of that??   is that the key to imparting technique, rather than 'just' moves, that can be used anywhere to freestyle?

this particular tango dancer we had as a visitor must have been extra confident tho', as he spent 2 hours dancing with us in open toed 'birkies'      daring!

i do agree elaine though, that logically it must be an awareness of weight/weight shift. ? but how do you add direction/shape?  ..or does that actually matter so much?

It is very much the case that if a Leader is prepared to take some time out to learn to follow, that they will improve themselves.  Eduardo will dance either lead or follow, with men or women.  There is nothing unusual about this at all. 

It is of great help as Eduardo, as the follower, is able to assess what the leader is doing wrong and will then reverse roles to show the leader, or the follower - you can plough on doing something incorrectly over and over again, but it is only when someone physically shows you that the penny will drop (in most cases!).

I often find in Le Roc, that women make better leaders than men.  I can only think that this is due to their experiencing being led.

As for directioning, shape, this all follows automatically.  As I have said, Tango is hard to start with and you will feel as though you need a brain transplant after your first couple of lessons, but do try it. 


Elaine

[jivedave]

....and now for something completely....

It is also about the lead understanding where his partners weight is.

....i like my parners weight in the right place (s)

It is very much the case that if a Leader is prepared to take some time out to learn to follow, that they will improve themselves. Eduardo will dance either lead or follow, with men or women. There is nothing unusual about this at all.

...that's just like dancing with helen at kingswood she leads me beautifully.

and all this talk of the Tango reminded me of a track i heard (and taped) on the 'doctor dememto show' by tom lever.
called the 'masochism tango'

.......' i ache for the touch of your lips dear but much more for the touch of your whips'
.......' you can raise whelks (or is whelts) like nobody else' ....'as we dance to the masochism tango'
.......' let your love be a flame not an ember ...say it's me that you want to dismember..'
......' your heart is as hard as stone or mahogany...that's why i'm in such exquisite aagony'..
etc...

to be slightly serious does Latin include Tango as there is a nearby class which i might try???

thanks for raising the K, my self esteem is on the up!!!

[Elaine]

....and now for something completely....

It is also about the lead understanding where his partners weight is.

....i like my parners weight in the right place (s)

It is very much the case that if a Leader is prepared to take some time out to learn to follow, that they will improve themselves. Eduardo will dance either lead or follow, with men or women. There is nothing unusual about this at all.

to be slightly serious does Latin include Tango as there is a nearby class which i might try???

thanks for raising the K, my self esteem is on the up!!!

Latin Tango will be ballroom and is nothing like Argentinian - it is Argentinian that will teach you the better lead/follow.

Elaine

[jivedave]

I often find in Le Roc, that women make better leaders than men.

 - you're not kidding; there was Maggie but should probably wouldn't have been a very good dancer as 'U turn, the lady isn't for turning'

sorry Elaine, things just catch my eye and i want light hearted about dancing as there are so many things to be uptight about. dave